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| Posted: Sat Apr 19th, 2008 11:36 pm |
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1st Post |
Keith Bryan
Member
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I have found a right hand westbend 5 port 580 what years were these made? if I buy it I would like it to be period correct fora 1960 - 61 kart
thanks
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| Posted: Sun Apr 20th, 2008 11:39 pm |
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2nd Post |
Keith Bryan
Member
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well I bought the engine
I hope it makes it to my door in good shape
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this vintage karting stuff sure takes a long time its taken about 5 years so far to collect a rare Kart / go power wheels / palmimi seat back tank / palmini hydraulic brakes / restore the chassis / find and buy a west bend 580 5 port RH drive engine / and I still have to Fab a new "cushion aire" motor mount and get a seat pad made
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| Posted: Mon Apr 21st, 2008 02:30 pm |
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3rd Post |
Russ Smith
Member
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Keith,
I hope you are documenting the restoration process. It will be something I'm sure many people will like to see and will make a great archive.
Russ
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| Posted: Mon Apr 21st, 2008 08:26 pm |
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4th Post |
Keith Bryan
Member
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Russ I am documenting the restoration on my website
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I agreed to buy the west bend for $1100 + shipping but I got cold feet and backed out so the engine is still for sale if any one wants to see it or buy it just click this link http://www.oldminibikes.com/forum/mini-bike-parts/3272-west-bend-580-a.html
this is a nice engine but my eyes were bigger than my pocket I dont like to operate like that but it didnt feel like the right thing for me to buy at this time
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| Posted: Mon Apr 21st, 2008 09:46 pm |
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5th Post |
Bill Pryor
Member
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Keith Bryan wrote: Russ I am documenting the restoration on my website
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I agreed to buy the west bend for $1100 + shipping but I got cold feet and backed out so the engine is still for sale if any one wants to see it or buy it just click this link http://www.oldminibikes.com/forum/mini-bike-parts/3272-west-bend-580-a.html
this is a nice engine but my eyes were bigger than my pocket I dont like to operate like that but it didnt feel like the right thing for me to buy at this time
Wow, Keith, it's a good thing you backed out....that is way too expensive. It's a nice looking engine...but that engine is worth about $600-$700 with the muffler, clutch and mount. The tank is not an original one, so it is basically worthless.....and that's assuming it is almost fresh as advertised. Even if it never has been run much, if it's never been rebuilt since it was new, it probably should have new seals put in before running it. I have no idea when the guy saw a 5-port go on eBay go for $1500. An NOS version of that engine would probably only go for about $1000.Last edited on Mon Apr 21st, 2008 09:48 pm by Bill Pryor
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| Posted: Tue Apr 22nd, 2008 12:19 am |
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6th Post |
David Luciani
Administrator
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dude,
just a my two cents rant.
for 1100.00 bucks you can buy a very nice mac 10 much rarer than that motor.
one the one you bought the gas tank doesn't even have the correct stickers. you were correct not to buy it.
watch ebay and occasionally a nice old hot rodded one of those shows up. the last west bend i saw went for about 570.00 and it had everything vintage hotrod kart you could ask for. gem and palmari parts perfect tank etc. etc.tell the guy to put it on ebay and he'll see. although i think i saw one like that for about five hundred with no takers.
also if you look cool clintons show up pretty regularly and stock ones can be found fairly often. those run about 4-700 for a loaded one and 70 to 300 for a stock one depending one condition and who's bidding.
now the big rant,
five years is a long time to gather parts it seems to me. personally i've found about ten mac 91's 4 s44's a mac 10 ,5, 70, 75, and buckets of clutches,rims and motor blocks and parts - three or four rupp karts - 2 mcculloch r1's - a gk800 (61) - a margay cheeta 2 - a bug (61) - a (60) gilson excalibur - a sears racer kart (59), and lots of odds and ends. i started about this time last year. i'll have the gk 800 rattle canned painted and ready for this year and racing by maybe next week.
my point is these are race karts meant to be raced. so get busy and get er running first with whatever engines handy. don't worry about factory correct or perfect - have fun. your best place to find good fair prices and lots of parts is At A Vintage Race. also you can enjoy the point of your kart which is to run it.
just my two cents dave
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| Posted: Tue Apr 22nd, 2008 12:49 am |
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7th Post |
Bill Pryor
Member
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>>my point is these are race karts meant to be raced. so get busy and get er running first with whatever engines handy. don't worry about factory correct or perfect - have fun. your best place to find good fair prices and lots of parts is At A Vintage Race. also you can enjoy the point of your kart which is to run it.
Hi David,
Everyone has a different approach to this hobby. Some like to do what you do and just find any old kart and engine and get it running and race around the track, while some people like to restore their karts better-than-new, and others never run them at all and just hang them on a wall in their basement. All of it is ok, and no one way is the right way, everyone has to do it the way they like to. Also, some people are lucky and live in areas where there are lots of karts and parts, and other people live where there is nothing. There's no way to generalize about this hobby, nor is there any way to say how someone else should be doing it. It's all about doing it the way that makes "you" happy. I also have been very fortunate to find a good supply of karts and parts in my area, but I've also been looking for a particular kart for almost 3 years with no luck. If you have a particular rare kart or engine you want, it could easily take 5 years or longer(if ever) to turn one up, and how long it takes depends a lot on how much you can pay for it, and what condition you want it in.
Last edited on Tue Apr 22nd, 2008 12:51 am by Bill Pryor
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| Posted: Tue Apr 22nd, 2008 12:53 am |
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8th Post |
Keith Bryan
Member
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I would like to thank everyone for your posts and PM's I really value what you guys have to say here is a link that shows my project
http://community-2.webtv.net/ZooCheetah/Palmini/
as far as racing it I have mixed emotions that I will need to sort out once it is together cuz as far as I know ther are only two of these karts left anywhere . I got a rare chance to talk with Don UMPberger and he said he only made about 100 total in 1960-61
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also please do not be offended by my wanting to bolt modern engines to it I rather bolt two vintage engines to it but the only vintage engines I have is one complete Villiers 9E and a another that is just the long block these engines were made between 1955 and 1967 and were used on american karts but I would have to either run them direct drive or construct a jackshaft that is why I was considering the west bend
thanks again for your help
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| Posted: Tue Apr 22nd, 2008 02:01 am |
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9th Post |
Dan Flanders
Member
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Hi Keith-
A West Bend 3-port or a 5-port would be an excellent motor for your kart. Like it was said earlier, that is way too much to pay for that motor. Personally, I paid $300 for a 5-port right-hander that needs a rebuild but is otherwise in decent shape. The RH's are a little rarer than the LH's so they fetch a higher price. The 5-port would have been spot on for your kart as it was only produced in '61. You can't go wrong with a 580 either way, they'll provide years of service between rebuilds (the way most use them) and they are pretty much bullet proof not to mention parts are "relatively" inexpensive when compared to other motors.
I certainly hope you decide to run it once it is all complete. There are a number of very rare karts that get run regularly. I wouldn't worry too much about someone wrecking your fresh restoration, most folks who run vintage karts understand the blood, sweat and tears that goes into bringing a kart back to life and are probably equally concerned about tweeking their own ride. To date, the safety record for vintage karts is outstanding...
Since you are in FL, you gotta come up to Barnesville, GA next March for the Vintage Winternationals....
Dan
Last edited on Tue Apr 22nd, 2008 02:05 am by Dan Flanders
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| Posted: Tue Apr 22nd, 2008 02:33 am |
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10th Post |
Bill Pryor
Member
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Hi Keith,
Thanks for sharing your project, that is indeed a very rare and special kart, but I'm completely with Dan on this, don't hesitate to run it when you get it done. You'll find that especially in the classes with the older "historic" karts people are very careful out on the track, and as David said, they were intended to be run, even if you don't run them hard, demonstrating them is part of honoring their heritage.
Funny to hear you calling 580's modern engines.  As Dan said those would be totally appropriate for running on your kart. I am facing the exact same issue with a kart I'm restoring. It's a 60/61 Italkart that I'd love to run a couple of fan-cooled Saetta or Parilla's on, but I haven't been able to find any(yet), so guess what, I'm going to run two WB 580 5-ports until I can find the perfect engines.
Good luck with finishing your project and I'll keep an eye on your Web site for updates.
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| Posted: Tue Apr 22nd, 2008 02:41 am |
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11th Post |
Keith Bryan
Member
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If you go to the website link you will see that the modern pair of engines that I currenty own are a custom pair of briggs OHV animal engines with loop pipes 90 deg intakes finned valve covers and custom paint with g0ldleaf flames
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the idea was to make a wacky 60's style hot rod (all bolt on stuff) I would never do anything I couldnt return to original
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| Posted: Tue Apr 22nd, 2008 03:11 am |
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12th Post |
| Posted: Tue Apr 22nd, 2008 03:16 am |
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13th Post |
| Posted: Tue Apr 22nd, 2008 03:28 am |
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14th Post |
Bill Pryor
Member
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Keith Bryan wrote: If you go to the website link you will see that the modern pair of engines that I currenty own are a custom pair of briggs OHV animal engines with loop pipes 90 deg intakes finned valve covers and custom paint with g0ldleaf flames
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the idea was to make a wacky 60's style hot rod (all bolt on stuff) I would never do anything I couldnt return to original
OOOHHHHH, now I get it. Well, it's certainly not something I would do, but as I said, everyone does what works best for them. I'm actually getting a bit of a kick out of thinking about the few purists blood boiling over hearing you say that..... 
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| Posted: Tue Apr 22nd, 2008 03:30 am |
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15th Post |
Bill Pryor
Member
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David Luciani wrote: kieth you might also check this site for the modern 580 they might still have a few. check bottom of the page.not exactly vintage correct but not four stroke either. http://www.usmotorpower.com/
I don't think they've had any for quite some time, but there is a guy on eBay that bought a bunch of those "modern" 3-port 580's and I think he sells them for around $550.
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| Posted: Tue Apr 22nd, 2008 03:36 am |
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16th Post |
Keith Bryan
Member
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yep there is one on ebay right now for $550
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QUESTION: how can you tell the new ones from the old ones?
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it's 11:30 Ive got to go to bed
thanks to everyone for all your great info.
goodnight
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| Posted: Tue Apr 22nd, 2008 05:03 am |
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17th Post |
Bill Pryor
Member
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Keith Bryan wrote: yep there is one on ebay right now for $550
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QUESTION: how can you tell the new ones from the old ones?
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it's 11:30 Ive got to go to bed
thanks to everyone for all your great info.
goodnight
There are only two things that I consider drawbacks to the new ones, and only one is a biggie; one it's not a true vintage engine(not a big issue to some, and to some it is), and two, it's a 3-port, which is pretty big difference. There is a significant difference in power between the two, and when you're talking about going from 4.x HP and going up 2-2.5 HP(depending on who you talk to), it's a pretty big difference. The 3-port was built to be an industrial engine, and the 5-port was built to be a race engine.
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| Posted: Tue Apr 22nd, 2008 11:36 pm |
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18th Post |
| Posted: Wed Apr 23rd, 2008 01:22 am |
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19th Post |
Russ Smith
Member
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Hey, after the feedback I received when I suggested the idea of slapping a pair of Copperheads on an R-1, I can't wait to see how Keith's dual Animal UMP special will be received. Great fun!
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| Posted: Thu Apr 24th, 2008 10:06 pm |
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20th Post |
Keith Bryan
Member
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I respect the vintage kart pureists its alot harder to restore a kart rather than just putting what ever you want on it
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My aim will never be to offend anyone
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if I ever show up at a vintage event my kart will be sporting vintage engines
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thanks for all the help and education I am getting about WB580 5 ports on the boards email & PM's
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he has several blocks and associated parts you may be be able to use.
