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| Posted: Tue Jun 12th, 2012 10:40 pm |
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1st Post |
Christ Holtz
Member
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Is there any known documented proof of Ingels-Borelli Caretta long wheelbase or Caretta works inhouse stretched customs made to order or modified? My research shows little was beyond Art's creativity or skill and there were multiple one off's made for a particular customer. Any documented known truth to this ? Last edited on Tue Jun 12th, 2012 10:42 pm by Christ Holtz
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| Posted: Wed Jun 13th, 2012 05:36 pm |
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| Posted: Wed Jun 13th, 2012 06:41 pm |
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3rd Post |
Christ Holtz
Member
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Tim,
I'm sure your pic is self explanitory but humor me explain further. I am noting the angle of the steering colomn arch.Last edited on Wed Jun 13th, 2012 06:44 pm by Christ Holtz
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| Posted: Wed Jun 13th, 2012 06:41 pm |
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4th Post |
Christ Holtz
Member
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I'm sure your pic is self explanitory but humor me explain further. I am noting the angle of the steering colomn arch.
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| Posted: Wed Jun 13th, 2012 06:41 pm |
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5th Post |
Christ Holtz
Member
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Additionally just for FYI I went to the wherehouse & went up to the Art Ingels kart and measured the wheelbase 2 times with different tapes to make sure I wasn't losing it with aging and all. 51.5" center rear axle to front center spindel and 35" from left to right on front spindels. I didn't notice any lengthening pieces added before or after the seat. Nor did I notice any noticable rust, only grime & dirt. It is strange how the gearbox is mounted 180 degrees reverse & on the left side instead of the right & partially horizontal vs. verticle. I'm understanding rules of the era allowed overall length was 60" max but would appreciate confirmation. Welds & mild steel tubing appear to be and look original. Understanding Art Ingles made custom made to order karts for select customers these measurements have me confused. The sissy luvered side panels all appear to be Ingles unique die cut authentic. The gap between the belly pan & the seat is about 7.5 inches but will have to validate again. Color seems to be original black but yellow and deep metallic red are known as well as unpainted versions from what I understand ? Kindly Confirm. Can anyone confirm these measurements of being Ingles handywork ?  Last edited on Thu Jun 14th, 2012 12:50 am by Christ Holtz
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| Posted: Wed Jun 13th, 2012 06:41 pm |
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| Posted: Wed Jun 13th, 2012 06:43 pm |
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| Posted: Thu Jun 14th, 2012 04:13 am |
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| Posted: Thu Jun 14th, 2012 07:29 am |
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| Posted: Thu Jun 14th, 2012 12:40 pm |
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Ted Johnson
Member
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Christ, I can't remember the max outside width allowed, but wheelbase was 50" maximum in ye olden days. In East Central Florida, we had a karter who was the giant economy size. He cut his Alpha kart in front of the seat and added material. His wheelbase ended up at around 52 inches. The "powers-that-be" made him shorten it back to 50 inches. As you state, 60" max overall length until the enduros came along.
Michael Burke has quite a lot of Caretta info. He has built a beautiful replica of the Cathy Hartman/Caretta sidewinder. TJ
Last edited on Thu Jun 14th, 2012 12:43 pm by Ted Johnson
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| Posted: Thu Jun 14th, 2012 02:18 pm |
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11th Post |
Larry Brown
Member
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Dan - Just to clarify your info about the Caretta chassis built by Art Ingels. Yes Art did in fact build both the sprint and enduro chassis while with Aviation Industries. I still have all the original info packet and the set of enduro plans, as well as the invoice from my purchase of an enduro chassis in l970. He offered both chassis' starting in a kit form right up through a complete rolling chassis. He basically made the chassis to order to suit the customer. In the packet I have, he included a 8x10 photo each of the chassis', and the sprint chassis showed mounted what I believe was a Parilla BA13. As far as the plans, they were offered for purchase @ a cost of $ 10.00. Not sure if you were referring to me as the " guy on the west coast ", but if not then there are at least 3 copies of plans in existence.
Larry
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| Posted: Thu Jun 14th, 2012 03:04 pm |
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12th Post |
Dan Flanders
Member
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Hey Larry-
It's been a couple of years! Yes, you were the one I was thinking of so there are just two sets. I tried to purchase the sprint plans from the guy who sold the kart to Junior, but he was adamant about keeping the plans with the kart. He did however send me the enduro plans and I bought some left-over Caretta specific parts from his wrecked Caretta.
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| Posted: Thu Jun 14th, 2012 07:04 pm |
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| Posted: Thu Jun 14th, 2012 07:09 pm |
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14th Post |
Christ Holtz
Member
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Dan , Larry, & All
That's interesting. I measured 3 times with different tape measures & swapped glasses & had a helper confirm 51.5 inches bc I thought I was losing it. I haven't found welding splice lengthening joints so ...?? Any of either of your plans, paperwork etc.. show a 50 inch wheelbase version ? Perhaps I'm just banana's on the 1.5 inches or ....? What are the different wheelbases either of your guys paperwork show were offered ?
Lets say hypothetically the one I have is the real deal What's a finished sprint or enduro roller catagorically each been selling for today 2012 and are values going down or up ?
Assuming mine were painted one of the OEM colors, which were the most in demand today 1,2,3 and if powder coated vs. liquid paint of the exact color match were done, what impact on value would it have? Same question for clear powder coated polished parts vs chrome? Same question for perhaps a non-painted OEM chassis option powder coated clear ? Desirability/Value worth of OEM optional louvered sissy panels upolstered or polished or painted, upolstery of seat (leather or nawgahide? kindly list optional upolstery colors & order of demand) ? I'd assume more options would raise value but perhaps as a race specific purpose it has greater value stripped, but I'm asking? Some specific purpose race cars were worth more in stripped race trim than delux street/track versions, but usually to a much smaller buyer base.
Last edited on Thu Jun 14th, 2012 07:21 pm by Christ Holtz
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| Posted: Thu Jun 14th, 2012 07:55 pm |
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15th Post |
Dan Flanders
Member
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Hi Christ-
No, you're not sitting on a g0ldmine 
Prices have been on the decline since 2008. Yes, there are some exceptions and outliers, but in general terms kart prices are really down from what they were in 2005-2006. The price of enduro karts is even worse. They're only run in the midwest & s.e. so there is an even smaller market for them. A NOS tiller steering bug sold a couple years back for $1,800.
Another example, the Caretta sprint above, fully restored as shown with motors, burco clutches pipes and original plans ready to run went for about $3,500 if I recall the sellers asking price accurately. Then throw in that there are a number of Caretta specific parts that if not present will need to be purchased (good luck)or remade($$$$)
By the time you factor in paint, upholstery, chrome etc. you will be lucky to break even on the cost of restoration and that's not even taking your time into account. Sorry, them's the breaks.
If it is a real Caretta with tag and all the correct parts, there is a distinct possibility it could bring more, but we're still not talking much in the scheme of vintage cars. Hell, you'd be lucky to find a nice clean Pacer or Gremlin.
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| Posted: Thu Jun 14th, 2012 11:18 pm |
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16th Post |
Christ Holtz
Member
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You're probably spot on; however, there's a possiblility of photographing dis-assembling all of it including gearbox (offer margay reassembly) polish outer covers, cleaning, silicone blasting, chrome/polish/clear, offer buyers choice of color, upolster all in buyers choice, & ship all boxed reconditioned & dissasembled (or raw/bare, clean, blasted, polished, chromed, cleared) all depending on agreed price. Ingles did very similiar with his offerings from what I understand. Appearently even a few full OEM custom Ingles Chrome/Polished frame/black upolstery models that were quite the talk (source is a original 77 year old respected 60's actual racer who owned multiple new OEM Caretta's even a Ingles deep red model. According to same source Art & Lou would make almost whatever customization you were willing to pay for & that includes a full selection of colors metallic & non-metallic). I never purchased from Art or Lou directly but this man did, so Ill take his word.
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| Posted: Thu Jun 14th, 2012 11:47 pm |
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| Posted: Fri Jun 15th, 2012 10:09 am |
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18th Post |
Dan Flanders
Member
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Hi Christ-
You're spot on about Caretta's, they'd build anything you wanted in any color you wanted. For along time it was thought that all of them came with an enclosed axle tube (one of the defining features of the Caretta). WRONG. There are several known that came from the factory that were set up for a gearbox that did not. They also built sidewinder karts too so there have been several that surfaced in the last 3-4 years. As to colors, same thing. Most were yellow, but there was at least one batch for a dealer in Oregon that were metallic red (?) with custom upholstery. My '64 modified enduro kart was a light metallic blue (I found not a spec of yellow anywhere on the kart prior to restoration).
Where it gets fuzzy is in the later years ('68/'69/'70) when Caretta transitioned ownership (Caretta Works) and Art was still building karts. Without the Caretta brass badge, you'll never know for certain whom it was made by as all are based the same design which Hartman refined, perfected, and used well into the 1980's. To add in another wrinkle, Hartman started building karts in the early 70's and their designs were based largely on the Caretta (see Michael Burke's recreation of Kathey Harman's kart) as John & Kathey ran Caretta's for many years (John was a factory driver in the early 60's).
Dan
Last edited on Fri Jun 15th, 2012 10:15 am by Dan Flanders
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| Posted: Fri Jun 15th, 2012 06:40 pm |
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19th Post |
Christ Holtz
Member
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Dan & M. Burke (and other historical positively spirited/intentioned Caretta officianados), 
I believe what you say it all jives with my research, but the plot thickens. I rubbed my fingers & inspected the bars from the seat back forward for post OEM lengthening or extention welds or any lengthening out of the ordinary only reveal deadend explainations or rational to explain/justify any pending concerns. Peddles & system are artfully (no pun intended) Ingles. Tie rods/steering system/hoop Ingles. Seat, sissy pods & louvers, rear enclosed axel Ingels. Both sets of wheel, fuel tank, optional gearbox (TBC) appear correct. Most appear seemingly OEM.
For instance puzzlers not limited to the following:
1. The OEM optional louvered sissy side pods have not been moved via re-weld. They start at the stearing hoop and are OEM usual customary legnth, shape, correctness compared to others historically with Art's unique 8 OEM louvers & die cut. But here's where the quandary begins. The rear of the sissy pods End well before where the OEM welds are to the back of the OEM seat with nothing but OEM welds physically felt or visually inspected.
2. There is an approximate air gap between the OEM belly pan & front of the OEM seat frame edge. There are seemingly abandoned OEM welds for a crossbar which would normally be at the back edge of the bellypan that would possibly not only allow cross riviting of same but seemingly also form & provide cross support for under the front edge of the seat edge. That same cross bar support has been relocated rearwards 9" for seemingly the same purpose minus the bellypan attachment function. Perhaps the seat was moved back 9" ?? mmm... But again no seemingly post OEM wheelbase lengthening from seat back forward to account for the approximate 9" gap. While the crossbar has been obviously relocated rearward approx 9" the seat nor the sissy pods seemingly have been. I've looked & felt multiple times, but maybe the 5th time ? Coincidently Art's general Sprint wheelbase spec was 42", but Art did unusual custom orders & modifications if customers paid for such. 42 + 9 = 51 . My wheelbase tapes out at 51.5" (maybe the tape was bent on 4 x of measurement?). Note the suspicious approximate 9" popping up.
3. Front end assembly seems correct minus usual crash bumper hoop, but seemingly no abandoned bumper welds. Spindle to Spindle 35" track doesn't seem usual but appears OEM. I'm informed by my racer/owner witness of that period that he doesn't recollect that sort of front track width but it's been more than 50 years ago & he's 25 years beyond that and like the Caretta his recollection and the aged Caretta have certain characteristics in common.
4. Relocation & re-orientation of the gearbox was necessitated to accomodate the dinasour 4 stroke flathead. Given those efforts putting a usual & customary 2 smoke seemingly would have cancelled out the cost & efforst regardless of the price difference back then but JMHO.
My rational opinion/explaination is Perhaps was relocated rearward 9" to accomodate a taller driver, but that doesn't explain the OEM welds & abandonment of other pre-OEM welds, unless some of Art's chassis were pre assembled to a certain point (like less final seat installation per individual order) then finalized per order. But that doesn't explain the seemingly relocated crossbar unless this was an early pre-assembly run mistake that Art learned from and afterwhich Art only welded in the crossbar after full payment & custom fittings ? Other than that I'm at a temporary loss. JMHO
My other quandary is was this chassis sold as a optional OEM gearbox roller then the 4 stroke was added post sale & the chassis modded accordingly or ? The plot thickens but perhaps irrelevant considering the restoration intent & supply in demand. Perhaps it is what it is regardless of what it was, but I believe to understand the genesis helps the end result.
Any goodwill opinions on these or other like concerns to unravel the puzzle would be welcome, least they be illwilled. If illwilled or alternatively agenda'd kindly PM private message them as its still a free country. Just do it privately vs. publically as to not cause intentional/unintentional harm/damage .
My comments alone herein will also serve as public seller disclosure. Last edited on Fri Jun 15th, 2012 07:01 pm by Christ Holtz
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| Posted: Fri Jun 15th, 2012 10:47 pm |
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20th Post |
David Luciani
Administrator
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C,
wish i hadn't but i read your post.
first until you actually sand blast off the paint and inspect the frame there is no way to "prove" the kart is unmolested.
i've added tube section to replace bad frame areas that you will never find short of paint removal.
Second even if you do "prove" the kart is original what is your point?
Are you restoring it to run or to sell or what???
That frame even if it is original isn't really desirable as it's an odd ball with no proven provenance.
as such anyone buying it would be putting it back to commonly accepted carretta specs.
one reason would be that as it sits it's an unknown quality as far as handling goes.
changing the frame that dranatically often will make a kart handle poorly.
so before you invest a ton trying to make a profit you need to consider who would be your end customer.
if you are for doing it yourself and actually running it.
i'll advise you to rebuild the drive train and run it on a track as a rat before i wasted alot of time painting .
that way if there's handling issues you can fix then without ruining the finish.
finally i hope all this isn't a twisted way of "proving" the framei s original just so you can sell it as unmolested.
just asking because there are alot of guys offering you good free advise.
it truely would be a shame if after all this free advise you don't restore the kart!!
as far as requesting that somebody p.m. you if they disagree with your assessment.
????? why???????
as you said it's a free country and this is an open forum.
anyway my two cents ,
dave
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